Curse

- Tain - · Apr 14, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

pvp wise critical strike is baed compared to twisting fangs or horns of the ox (knock-locks always good for the lulz)

as for critical eye its nice but the +1/-1 +5e daggers get the job done and open up a space on my bar

in the end im out about 1-2 damage and since a moebius/shattering sins goal is pressure not spike i can live with with that

mind you im speaking strictly pvp here in pve i always use 15^50 as critical strike > energy

The Campfire = PvE forum

I do agree that Critical Strike is a nice way to waste your dual, in pve as well... so many better options, and so many other ways to emanage. Critical Eye is usually unnecessary, as you said, but can be nice for higher energy chains. Falling Lotus Strike and zealous daggers is all the emanage you need for Moebius/DB or anything else you might run in pve - add in Brawling Headbutt for the free, easy-to-spam KD.

Bobby2 · Apr 14, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

OK here we go again

- Crit Agility requires constant combat:
- Lotz of melee baddies make CritDefenses VERY welcome for this.
- Critical Strike:
----- guarantees enchant refresh
----- takes care of energy management
----- nice recharge, so it's easy on Moebius

Critical Eye is better as e-management in PvP, where its strengths shine (cannot be removed, long duration without nasty clauses). It is a good skill. But considering the context (PvE Moebius Blossom) I'd take Critical Strike anyday.

To the guy suggesting Brawling Headbutt: Club of a 1000 Bears Hi Yaah.

- Tain - · Apr 14, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

OK here we go again

- Crit Agility requires constant combat:
- Lotz of melee baddies make CritDefenses VERY welcome for this.
- Critical Strike:
----- guarantees enchant refresh
----- takes care of energy management
----- nice recharge, so it's easy on Moebius

Critical Eye is better as e-management in PvP, where its strengths shine (cannot be removed, long duration without nasty clauses). It is a good skill. But considering the context (PvE Moebius Blossom) I'd take Critical Strike anyday.

I agree on Critical Eye in pvp, but that's not what we're discussing. Critical Strike... there are just so many better ways to use a dual, and so many other options for emanage. I'm not saying it's a bad skill at all, but looking at effectiveness, it just doesn't turn me on. Crit Agility lasts 17s at 13 crit strikes. That's plenty of time to get a crit, even with time between fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

To the guy suggesting Brawling Headbutt: Club of a 1000 Bears Hi Yaah.

Sorry, but no.

- 7 adren charges much faster than a 12s recharge
- 0e vs 5e
- At max rank, 70 dmg compared to a maximum of +60 when adjacent to 7 enemies

DreamRunner · Apr 14, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Why would you bring a sin outside the SA or scythe sins anyway? And I don't remember either of those having critical defense. Moko probably knows a lot more about TA gimmicks though

SA sins usually does have critical defense. Its because of Golden fox strike that goes well with critical defense. All SA sin's has something like this.

[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Critical Defense[/skill][skill]assassin's Remedy[/skill]

XDeadboltX · Apr 14, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Sorry, but no.

- 7 adren charges much faster than a 12s recharge

I think the point is that moebius will recharge it.

And I prefer critical strike to critical eye, then i can get a critical hit when i need it. Im not really a lucky person so try not to rely on chance.

Anyway on topic, after reading all of these arguments it seems both mods have little effect. +5e not needed unless using a high damage combo. And 15^50 only adding 2.55 dmg, which isnt that much really. Id probably go with the 15^50 since I never really need the extra 5 energy unless Im running something like Beguiling Haze.

Coloneh · Apr 14, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I trust my party's passive defenses enough to know that self-heals and self-defenses are deadweight on my bar.

I dont. people suck, and H/H is almost as bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If you need a self heal and critical defenses, you're bad. I'm not saying people who use them are bad, I'm saying people who need them are. Unless you're h/hing hard mode, you don't need them. They aren't bad, but definitely aren't needed. Learn to position, learn to not take initial aggro, learn to shadow step.

well, maybe you dont need self heal and critical defenses when playing with a 2 monk + support backline, but if you were running something like the PvE meta you wont have a 2 monk backline. you would have a N/Rt or two, maybe an Imbagon and a monk, these character put down some serious DPS, but arent as stable as monks, so your characters should have defense and self heal. having each character bring a little defense is way better than wasting an entire party slot.

position dosnt keep you from getting hit by melee, it keeps them off your backline.

not every party has a warrior anymore. if you arent playing one, and your friends arent playing one, you dont have one. the AI can't play warrior.

Shadow steps are a waste of bar-space in PvE. they save you 1 second of running to your enemy, and you usually have to chase them down anyways because of aftercast.

I can respect knowing what you are doing in PvP, but some things just do not translate from PvP to PvE. playing sin is one of them, the class is played entirely differently in PvE and PvP.

Arkantos · Apr 14, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

When I'm playing with actual players I'm generally playing with a WoH monk and an imbagon. When I'm playing h/h, I'm using 2 henchie monks. The passive defense and healing from my monk/paragon are enough to keep me alive in hard mode. The healing/protection from the henchies are enough to keep me alive in normal mode.

I guess I should have clarified better. By positioning I meant how you get into the group, and who takes initial aggro. Get your warrior to get initial aggro, the melee will go for him first. When the warrior takes aggro, use critical agility, and run into the backline. You may get attacked by a melee, you may not. Even if you do, you aren't going to get demolished. With a high rank sunspear title, assassins with critical agility almost have the same armor as a warrior with a shield. I really don't know what human party doesn't run a warrior, but if you do get your monk to prot you before going in. It's not hard.

With henchies, ctrl + shift + space a target for them all to run in and get aggro. Then you go to a different target (seeing as the target your h/h are going for will most likely be dead before you get off your attack chain) and start attacking them. Again, if you get attacked, you won't get demolished. Get one of your heroes to pack PS and micro it, or simply fall back like any melee would.

Shadow steps are a waste in PvE, but I'd much rather pack a shadow step (1 skill) then a self heal and critical defenses (2 skills). As I said though, I'd rather not take any of them.

What I've been saying has nothing to do with PvP. I'm talking from my personal experience in PvE. Sin isn't hard to successfully play as long as you're not bad at the game. I'm not omgwtfbbqhaxleet at playing assassin in PvE, but it's not hard to not fail.

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 14, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

I do agree that Critical Strike is a nice way to waste your dual, in pve as well... so many better options, and so many other ways to emanage. Critical Eye is usually unnecessary, as you said, but can be nice for higher energy chains. Falling Lotus Strike and zealous daggers is all the emanage you need for Moebius/DB or anything else you might run in pve - add in Brawling Headbutt for the free, easy-to-spam KD.

i completely agree with you

twisting fangs/hoto/club of a 1000 bears often finds its way on to my bar instead of critical strike. It really depends on the area as if there isnt much melee then i don't have to worry about my critical defenses getting refreshed and critical agility @ 13 crit + 9 ss holds up just fine with critical eye for me ^_^

so ontopic

pvp - 15^50 for spiking +5e for continuous chains w.o crit strike
pve - 15^50 always

Div · Apr 14, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Wow people are dumb. Arkantos, look luck convincing people.

Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger

At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief

Aztec Mijo · Apr 14, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

i use chimor's daggers and a zealous 15^50 +30

i dont see too much use in either really since most daggers use zealous and the 15^50 doesnt do much more dmg, but i guess 15^50 is a bit more useful in pve.

why do ppl ask this kinda stuff, we have 4 wep slots ya know :d

Monk In The Box · Apr 14, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

+5E easy choice

Coloneh · Apr 15, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

haha, whatever. ive made my point. if you choose not to read it, then whatever.

DreamRunner · Apr 15, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Wow people are dumb. Arkantos, look luck convincing people.

Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger

At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief

I am assuming thats pointed at me?

How many have actually convinced others that their point of view is correct; the amount of PvE vs PvP threads go around in these forums, I can assume its very low.

But I am guessing also that your sin is getting an enchantment from somewhere else?

- Tain - · Apr 15, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Assassin's Remedy is an enchant. Way to look smart.

DreamRunner · Apr 15, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Assassin's Remedy is an enchant. Way to look smart.

Oshi Im a retard

Div · Apr 15, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

The matter of the fact is, there are 2 discussions here. Dreamrunner is arguing about critical defenses in PvP, which I have shown is clearly stupid. The OP was asking about it in PvE, which Arkantos has shown that it is just as dumb.

And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.

Bobby2 · Apr 15, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Dreamrunner is arguing about critical defenses in PvP, which I have shown is clearly stupid. The OP was asking about it in PvE, which Arkantos has shown that it is just as dumb.

And here I disagree with you - if you are the ONLY PC, I assume you're running SY!, running out combat is hardly ideal, and CritDefenses is justified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.

I do not have the luxury of having different sets for PvE and PvP... as I'm a fan of Haze in AB, +5e is always kinda useful. Otherwise you're right.

Still I believe +15% base Dagger damage is a steep price to pay for 5e in a class that is as energy-intensive as the Sin - not everyone can spare the slot for CritEye / is running 13CS.

Coloneh · Apr 15, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.

can you teach me to weapon swap in the middle of attack chains plz? sounds useful

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 15, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.

u can swap in the middle of a chain?

can i have ur hacks?

Tyla · Apr 15, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

You can, actually.
Esc (Or whatever Cancel is set to) RIGHT after an attack, then hit the set you want to switch to.

You should know if you've played a Backbreaker 'Sin. ([[email protected]][falling [email protected]][twisting [email protected]][falling lotus [email protected]][blades of [email protected]][no skill][no skill][no skill])